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Spirits Consultation
Posted 04-26-2017, 03:10 PM |
Kiwi
Site Helper
Female, 22.75
----
Toll in, Smol lbs
I'm releasing an ep
© Kiwi
Consultation: Spirit rules & guidelines

With the upcoming changes to how spirits can act and interact with Doutaini, it's more important than ever that we have clear rules about what Spirits can and can't do.

We're asking you, the members, because there are a lot of questions that sometimes only come up after you've tried playing a Spirit and wanted to explore the bounds of what they can or can't do, what they can feel, etc.

This discussion should focus on rules about how spirits interact with the physical world and living wolves, and not suggestions for entirely new concepts (because we have a lot of things in the works already when it comes to spirit-on-spirit interaction, the Island, etc! This might change and we'll come back to you later if we need anything else).

To start, here is the current statement on the 'Cradle to Grave' page about spirits:

As a spirit, you are allowed to continue playing your character as often as you would like. However, spirits do not have any physical qualities to them. They appear as a slightly transparent image of their former self and cannot make physical contact with the living, but they are able to talk. In regards to the living, if a spirit appears in a thread, anyone there can see them and acknowledge/interact with them. The spirit may not make themselves visible to only specific wolves.

Once your character has died and become a Spirit you can appear randomly at any thread you wish in whichever area of Doutaini you choose.


Here are a couple of things to start thinking about:
  • Clearly, spirits can see and hear. What about other senses - can they smell mortal scents? Can they feel the wind in their fur or the sun on their backs?
  • How do they experience the mortal world? How do they appear in the world (can they navigate places accurately before they appear, but not quite see details i.e. wolves, since they can't see a wolf unless the wolf can see them)?
  • How fast can they travel?
  • What do they experience when they're not in the mortal world? Do they live with the Gods? Are they in a sort of limbo?
  • Can they see souls?
  • How can they appear? (It has been allowed for spirits to appear at any stage of how they were in life, including wearing a necklace. What does this extend to?)
  • Should we allow a lot of artistic license about specifics of the Spirit's mindset - e.g., whether or not they can remember their entire life, what their motivations are for appearing, what emotions they feel.

There's a starting point, now it's your turn! You can both ask questions and try to answer them with your opinions. Try to just state your opinion once rather than debating with other individuals - the final decisions will go to staff.










Posted 04-26-2017, 08:21 PM | This post was last modified: 04-26-2017, 08:30 PM by Ellie
Ellie
OOC Account
Female, 17.00
----
5'5 in, 110 lbs
ep
© Ellie
Clearly, spirits can see and hear. What about other senses - can they smell mortal scents? Can they feel the wind in their fur or the sun on their backs?
I think smelling would be fine, and the wind would move their fur, but they wouldn't be able to feel it. Same as the sun, it would cast light on them (they wouldn't have shadows), but they can't physically feel the sun - as they cannot feel cold or warmth.

How do they experience the mortal world? How do they appear in the world (can they navigate places accurately before they appear, but not quite see details i.e. wolves, since they can't see a wolf unless the wolf can see them)?
I think they experience it normally, they can be unseen if they want, but as soon as they speak they are seen by all. I think they should be able to clearly see any place they gained points for in their mortal lives exploring, and other places are clear as long as they are visible. If they are in new territory and invisible, they cannot see as clearly.

How fast can they travel?
Not instantaneously, but faster than mortal wolves. I would say they can get across dout and back in less than half a day.

What do they experience when they're not in the mortal world? Do they live with the Gods? Are they in a sort of limbo?
I think they get their own plane of existence, which is why they can travel quickly and such. At least until the island is made, when the island is made, they are transported to the island when not in the mortal world. This will promote activity on the island.

Can they see souls?
Like... the true nature of wolves? I dont think anyone but the gods should be able to do this, because it would mean a wolf can predict the intentions of another wolf, which is impossible even to the person who plays the character. (Unless you mean other invisible spirits bc in that case yes they should be able to sense them if not actually be able to see them)

How can they appear? (It has been allowed for spirits to appear at any stage of how they were in life, including wearing a necklace. What does this extend to?)
I think any stage as they were in life, but only appear with the necklace they died with, or as a rogue if they die as such. This prevents subterfuge and trickery on the spirits part (unless yall think that would be fun). I'm against spirits appearing as ghoulish unless they were disfigured in life.

Should we allow a lot of artistic license about specifics of the Spirit's mindset - e.g., whether or not they can remember their entire life, what their motivations are for appearing, what emotions they feel.
I think memory loss, as in mortal wolves, is a character choice. I dont see any reason for there to be limits on how someone plays a mental state of their own spirit.

I hope this all makes sense, I'm on my phone :P













Posted 04-27-2017, 01:12 AM |
tig
Site Helper
N/A, 91.00
----
short in, impatient lbs
ep
© tig
Clearly, spirits can see and hear. What about other senses - can they smell mortal scents? Can they feel the wind in their fur or the sun on their backs?
Well, it would be silly to say spirits can taste stuff, so personally I'm not for being able to smell things. I'm of the thought that spirits are on an entirely separate plane of existence to mortals, and the only way that they can interact is to be seen and heard. So that's a no to all of those, imo.

•How do they experience the mortal world? How do they appear in the world (can they navigate places accurately before they appear, but not quite see details i.e. wolves, since they can't see a wolf unless the wolf can see them)?
Personally, I think they should be able to will themselves into existence in any place they earned points for exploring in life since explore points are earned for 'knowing' a territory. As it doesn't really matter if a spirit appears halfway through an obstacle, it wouldn't much matter if they were able to detect them or not. Perhaps spirits could have a pull towards the living, instead, and this could by why they appear.

•How fast can they travel?
Instantaneously from the places that they have explored in life, but they would have to 'explore' in death to be able to go other places. I mean, if spirits can travel faster than the regular wolf, there shouldn't really be a problem with this as there probably no threads that happen instantaneously in dout anyway.

•What do they experience when they're not in the mortal world? Do they live with the Gods? Are they in a sort of limbo?
I'm in favour with limbo among the stars, sort of as a floating consciousness that is not aware of time, only that they are surrounded by divinity. I mean, the gods are divine beings who probably wear the skins of mortals so as not to like ... fry everybody's brains, right? Perhaps the spirits' consciousness could be aware of the divine presence, but not be able to interact directly with them unless the god wills it.

•Can they see souls?
Personally, I think this should be a power of the gods only.

•How can they appear? (It has been allowed for spirits to appear at any stage of how they were in life, including wearing a necklace. What does this extend to?)
Any stage from life to death and grisly beyond. Personally, I'm not a fan of the necklaces unless a wolf died while still in the pack, though. Or unless a divine being came down and nabbed up their soul.

•Should we allow a lot of artistic license about specifics of the Spirit's mindset - e.g., whether or not they can remember their entire life, what their motivations are for appearing, what emotions they feel.
Well, surely dying is such a traumatic thing that memory loss would be completely plausible anyway? Personally, I think restricting how people play their characters (within reason ofc) is p much a roleplay sin.
If you had the power of teleportation, you wouldn't need to have a reason for teleporting somewhere if you just wanted to /go/. Same with a spirit. All they have now are their desires so they can just pop up all over to sate their boredom.










Posted 05-04-2017, 08:00 PM | This post was last modified: 05-04-2017, 08:01 PM by Vaitan
Fire
Vaitan
Fire Alpha
Male, 6.25
Endomorph
36 in, 125 lbs
551 ep
© Jamie
Clearly, spirits can see and hear. What about other senses - can they smell mortal scents? Can they feel the wind in their fur or the sun on their backs?
I don't see how that would make sense, at that point they would basically be alive.

How do they experience the mortal world? How do they appear in the world (can they navigate places accurately before they appear, but not quite see details i.e. wolves, since they can't see a wolf unless the wolf can see them)?
I think it's a spirit's intuition--they just think of a place and materialize there. They don't have to physically travel. However, it takes some time for them to manifest because they need to gather energy. They hover slightly over the earth, unless they specifically want to touch down and walk, then they can. They may appear as they did in life except more translucent; light definitely shows through them, and depending on how much energy they exert (or don't) they could be less colorized and more translucent/white-blue and wispy--like when the Avatar summons their past lives or something XD

How fast can they travel?
It takes time to manifest the energy, so not instantaneously but faster than a mortal wolf.

What do they experience when they're not in the mortal world? Do they live with the Gods? Are they in a sort of limbo?
I think it depends on who that wolf was and how powerful they were. If they didn't interact much with the gods, I feel that their souls would be in limbo and they could only occasionally manifest. However, if they were very pious and lived in Doutaini a long time, maybe they would live among the gods, or at least spend some time with them in the afterlife. I definitely think this should be left open for players to be creative.

Can they see souls?
Nah.

How can they appear? (It has been allowed for spirits to appear at any stage of how they were in life, including wearing a necklace. What does this extend to?)
Again, I feel like this should be left open--it doesn't have to be consistent. Not every spirit should be the same. As long as they don't appear completely solid like a living wolf.

Should we allow a lot of artistic license about specifics of the Spirit's mindset - e.g., whether or not they can remember their entire life, what their motivations are for appearing, what emotions they feel.
Yes, please leave this completely open.

:)










Posted 05-04-2017, 08:40 PM |
Lament
Spirit
Female, 1.00
----
x in, x lbs
x ep
© Aubers
Clearly, spirits can see and hear. What about other senses - can they smell mortal scents? :: I think they should be able to smell as well but not taste.
Can they feel the wind in their fur or the sun on their backs? :: no; if they can feel that then should be able to feel living mortals

How do they experience the mortal world? :: As a sort of alternate state of being. Majority of time they're in the afterlife (with the stars; in limbo; up to RP'er how they perceive being dead) when they appear in doutaini I like to think its due to their soul/conciousness/being shifting to an alternate state of focus.

How do they appear in the world :: They condense their consciousness and focus. (up to RP'er going into detail or not) I feel with their arrival they also gain a knowledge of the earthly surroundings so the spirit would know if they were appearing say; in a tree or right behind someone. Its an awareness of the state of living that applies to the world in general that allows them to be precise.

How fast can they travel? :: Traveling within the mortal world I'd say they can run/float 2x as fast as a wind wolf using agility. However if they vanish/leave a thread by going back to the spirit realm there's no time relative to the living and they can move to other locations instantly as death is a state of mind. (so in dead form they can show up on threads posted along the same time-line but in 'living' form they cannot)

What do they experience when they're not in the mortal world?:: up to the RP'er

Do they live with the Gods? :: I like to think so but again; I feel it should be up to the RP'er
Are they in a sort of limbo? :: I like to think so; I think the afterlife can be different for all wolves depending on their beliefs and how they lived their life.

Can they see souls? :: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by souls? I think they can see wolves spirits on their death threads after passing (aka escort them to the after world) but if they're not dead I don't think they can see inside the wolve's heart / soul / intentions (however you wanna word that)

How can they appear? :: Any stage of their life (this includes as shapeshifted animals they've used while alive if blessed)

Should we allow a lot of artistic license about specifics of the Spirit's mindset? :: Yes, I feel this should left completely up to RP'er. For example I know Lament has lived through a lot but I use her being a spirit as an excuse for my bad memory and the things I don't remember :D

Essentially other than locking down the senses and maybe the travel speed I feel how spirits experience death should be left up to the RP'er; with maybe a few guidelines.










Posted 05-11-2017, 04:16 PM |
KittyKookiez
OOC Account
Female, 1.00
----
5'6 in, 106 lbs
Over 9000 ep
© KittyKookiez
•Clearly, spirits can see and hear. What about other senses - can they smell mortal scents? Can they feel the wind in their fur or the sun on their backs?
No. But when it comes to touch, they can't touch anything except for the ground (but they dig/affect the ground in any way). They are, however, allowed to pass under the ground, or fly through the air.

•How do they experience the mortal world? How do they appear in the world (can they navigate places accurately before they appear, but not quite see details i.e. wolves, since they can't see a wolf unless the wolf can see them)?
I think their eye-sight should be the same as a mortal wolf.

•How fast can they travel?
They can fly pretty fast. They can teleport, so walking isn't really necessary. However, if they choose to walk, it is the same speed as they were when they were alive.

•What do they experience when they're not in the mortal world? Do they live with the Gods? Are they in a sort of limbo?
I tend to keep that vague for both myself and anybody else for when I get my first spirit. Though, I would imagine they're in this kind of black void -- where, I guess, they are literally nothing. Not even a thought. You know when you're about to fall asleep, and almost all thought just ceases? Just like that.

•Can they see souls?
Er, no.

•How can they appear? (It has been allowed for spirits to appear at any stage of how they were in life, including wearing a necklace. What does this extend to?)
As anything they want, but only if it is how they were before they died. They can appear as any stage of age they want. They can even appear as how they were when they died. They can choose to have the necklace they were wearing AT DEATH (if they were in a pack at the time) on or off.

•Should we allow a lot of artistic license about specifics of the Spirit's mindset - e.g., whether or not they can remember their entire life, what their motivations are for appearing, what emotions they feel.
I think it doesn't matter. Let the roleplayer roleplay them however they want. Just, you know, with physical limits and all that.

PLOTS: Whenever I plot, I always go by the quote "Whoever has the muse first makes the thread" unless stated otherwise


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Posted 05-11-2017, 04:51 PM |
Kiwi
Site Helper
Female, 22.75
----
Toll in, Smol lbs
I'm releasing an ep
© Kiwi
I'll reply properly when I have more time (and don't have a headache, heh), but just to clarify that this is open for ANY comments at all, it doesn't have to just be responses to the questions I put! Those were just to prompt discussion.

Please do bring up your own questions or comments, too! <3










Posted 05-11-2017, 08:11 PM |
Savvas
Unregistered
,
in, lbs
ep
© 
My thoughts!

1. I definitely don't think spirits should be omnipotent, but I do think they should have an advantage in terms of being able to scour the "mortal world" in a visceral sense in order to glean information, but it should come with dedication and not a flimsy "they found out about this".

That being said, I don't think they should have any other "senses" beyond sight and hearing. This puts them at a balanced disadvantage based on what I wrote above. I imagine that the mortal world 'touching' them would be an empty, perhaps even an emotional experience for them given that they can see it rustling their fur, but they can't feel it. They're dead after all - I think it's important for spirits to maintain a level of disconnect from the true mortal world in that respect. They shouldn't feel entirely content or at peace, because they're technically ghosts.


2. I imagine their experiences on the spiritual plane to be independent to each character, and individualized based on the roleplayer. I've often written Magdalena being trapped in a void, surrounded by stars, but since the Gods themselves are written by Staff I almost felt like it was "powerplaying" to have her interact with them in any regard beyond sensing their presence. But if a roleplayer wants to write them being in an eden or heaven of sorts, or trapped in a dark void, that should be up to them.


MORE COMING!!










Posted 05-12-2017, 06:08 PM | This post was last modified: 05-13-2017, 05:11 AM by Asceo
Earth ( Staff )
Asceo
Earth Beta
Female, 3.75
Meso-runner
33 in, 110 lbs
225 ep
© Intricate
Clearly, spirits can see and hear. What about other senses - can they smell mortal scents? Can they feel the wind in their fur or the sun on their backs?

Nope. Nor does their "touch" to another wolf/object affect it. However, because they are ethereal, I do think that if they "touch" something, the thing will feel something even though the spirit will not.

Example: Spirit walks through WolfA. Spirit cannot feel more than an awareness of passing through an object (but no physical sensation). WolfA can feel an almost physical sense of something passing through them/touching them (coldness, an absence, an otherworldly sense, strange sensation, etc.). But again, neither wolf can technically feel an actual physical feeling. Just a sensation or awareness of feeling. (Like when you're hair stands on end and you have an "off" feeling when you go somewhere creepy, even though you think nothing wrong is present? Kinda like that)

How do they experience the mortal world? How do they appear in the world (can they navigate places accurately before they appear, but not quite see details i.e. wolves, since they can't see a wolf unless the wolf can see them)?

Like above, they can pass through things and even -see/hear- inside those things. They can still have those two senses, so if your spirit walks through a thick tree, they can see the inside wood and hear the sounds of bugs within it. I think floating (still or moving), "flying", and touching down to earth to appear like they are walking/running on it is fine. Teleporting should cost them energy and make them feel a little more mentally drained, but is acceptable. When running "touched down", their speed should cap out at the same or 2x faster than Wind's Agility power.

As an aside:

I would like to think that they can use the element of the necklace they were wearing at death with access to every power they earned EP for (bc otherwise someone could technically join every pack and create an avatar lmao) or a wolf can use the first 3 levels (learned of course) of any element they learned while living in a single thread.

Should we allow a lot of artistic license about specifics of the Spirit's mindset - e.g., whether or not they can remember their entire life, what their motivations are for appearing, what emotions they feel.

Yes!




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Posted 06-21-2017, 07:06 AM |
Kiwi
Site Helper
Female, 22.75
----
Toll in, Smol lbs
I'm releasing an ep
© Kiwi
Okay, I am going to attempt to summarise as I'll be bringing this to staff shortly. But also last-minute tagging Liam and Pythia and please tag any other long-term spirit players you know of!


So this is a combination of my thoughts & the majority feelings so far (as best I can summarise).

Senses
I don't think Spirits should be able to smell, taste, or have any kind of touch-based sensation like temperature - because by definition, they can't touch things (things would pass right through them), and taste defo requires touching also. I would be willing to compromise on smell; either way could provide interesting opportunities for Spirits. But I think denying them smell helps counteract some of the spirit OP-ness they have from other things.

As for light and wind, I like the idea spirits can change this a little bit at will, since their appearance can be the same as "any way they appeared in life". So, deciding whether their hair is floaty, flat, or flying in the 'breeze'. And whether their form is in shadow or lit up by the sun. They're in a different world, so I don't think they'd be bound by earthly constraints.

General consensus: No senses other than sight/sound. Possibly they are affected by wind/light around them, but they don't feel it.


Experiencing the world & travel
I would point out that the current rules already state a spirit cannot see someone without being seen themselves, and I think this should stay. But they can hide themselves round corners, and hence can 'hear without being heard'.

I like the idea that, while in the 'spirit world', they see an outline of the land and can hence choose a place to materialise, but cannot see any wolves. When they materialise, they can be seen the normal way. Then they can travel by gliding, probably several times faster than a wolf runs, but they cannot teleport.

I like the idea that they have a greater pull towards places and people they experienced in life, but think they should still be able to appear anywhere; they'll just be unfamiliar with it.

General consensus: Somewhat mixed - perhaps teleportation is allowed, perhaps only gliding. Mostly agreement that there is a 'spirit realm', which is different to when they appear in the 'earthly realm', and that they can walk or glide in the earthly realm.

Spirit realms
I think the spirit realm is a state of being, amongst the stars, with a feeling of being surrounded by divine consciousness but not actually interacting with them.

General consensus: Pretty similar to the above; generally a kind of 'limbo', a dream-like state of sorts.

Seeing souls:
Sorry, I threw this in as a kind of wildcard and probably didn't explain it well enough. By 'seeing souls', what I was imagining was that, when deciding where to materialise, they would see a small light wherever there is a wolf (just like the wolves see stars in the heavens which are supposedly a dead wolf's soul!). The closer the wolf is to death, or if they had a connection with the spirit, the brighter the light would be and the more they'd be 'drawn' to it. In this way, spirits would know that they're materialising near a wolf, but not know who the wolf is or any other information.

Won't do a general consensus on this cos I think people were thinking I meant something very different to this!

Appearance and mindset
I think this is basically up to the roleplayer, as long as it is an appearance the wolf held at any point in life. Their voice can change alongside it. I don't think blessed wolves should be able to appear as animal forms they took in life, nor anyone with an 'animal for a day' pass. Necklaces, I 100% think they can wear any necklace they were part of during any point of life, since that's what our current rules allow (though should that be 'locked' to their age? e.g. if they were in Storm only as a pup, can they only wear a storm necklace if they look like a pup?)

And yeah I was of course never suggesting limiting artistic license on a spirit's mindset, but I was thinking we could create a small list of ideas for people who might want to play their wolf a bit differently, e.g. the suggestion that death can change a character's personality if they want it to, it might be traumatic, it could make them vengeful, or forgetful, or find inner peace - they might latch on to the tasks they never finished in life, or might let everything go because there's no point any more. Etc.

(I also use Leiley's spirit-ness as an excuse for my bad memory :P She had memory loss at the end of her life, so sometimes I have this affect her memory as a spirit.)

General consensus: Completely open about mindset, and somewhat open about appearance - probably with the wording "they can appear as an image of themselves from any stage in their life, exactly as they were at the chosen point in time."










Posted 06-21-2017, 08:17 AM |
Liam
Spirit
Male, 8.50
Endomorph
37 in, 136 lbs
584 ep
© Cyn
I'm pretty much digging everything you mentioned Kiwi.

I, personally, would like to see some form of teleportation allowed for Spirits simply because they pass in and out of their dimension fairly seamlessly. It could maybe be a 'spirit ability' since they don't have any magic that directly could harm, aid or affect mortals. (Although I do think that it would be super cool if Spirits eventually did have some sort of abilities, powers or even the opportunity to evolve to a demi-god buuuuuttttt.... I know that that is a lot for staff to consider implementing to the site and could be a royal pain. So no big push. Just a daydream I've had since I saw some wolves on Sordid that became demigods.)

Anyway! Yup. I like it all. Sound and reasonable and easy to follow along for us Spirit players. :)










Posted 06-21-2017, 08:25 AM |
Pythia
Unregistered
,
in, lbs
ep
© 
I'll def try and give some input after work this afternoon!










Posted 06-21-2017, 08:46 AM |
Kiwi
Site Helper
Female, 22.75
----
Toll in, Smol lbs
I'm releasing an ep
© Kiwi
I may be bringing up something about very minor spirit abilities with staff atm


As for teleporting - I mean, effectively they can probably 'go anywhere at any time' in terms of showing up at a new thread, cos even now we just go 'oh this wolf happened to be in the area' when we bring our wolf to a thread, and that'd be basically the same for spirits - they happened to materialise in the general area, and then they quickly glide nearby to hone in. But as for going between simultaneous threads, or going to call for help, teleportation would be needed in that situation. Even though it would be nice to have someone other than blessed wolves being able to immediately go get help, I think it's a bit OP - e.g. they could immediately warn a pack or a wolf about an incoming attack. Even with gliding super fast (and remember they can go 'as the crow flies', and straight through objects as well), that gives a massive advantage to anyone who's got a spirit on their side.




Another idea I thought of was having spirits be pack patrons. There was a time when Alpha removal due to inactivity happened so often that it was the only time we really saw the Gods - and I think God appearances should mostly be saved for positive things, or really important negative things. A pack shouldn't have 4 DI visits in a year just cos they had 4 really inactive alphas. So I think it'd be cool if a spirit was randomly chosen by the pack's demi-god to bring down that message that a new alpha is needed, and enact their will. (We could allow any spirit to sign up for it, as long as they were part of that pack during their life, and then choose randomly - otherwise it's a bit unfair/elitist. Or alternatively, each spirit just chooses one pack that they can be patron for, and that puts them on the list to be chosen. Then they get 48 hours to post a thread, or someone else will be chosen instead).










Posted 06-21-2017, 11:09 AM |
Cavae
Unregistered
,
in, lbs
ep
© 
I'm so on board with Pack Patrons. I think it could make playing a spirit more interesting and give the character some responsibility. <3










Posted 06-21-2017, 11:20 AM |
Rouhani
Unregistered
,
in, lbs
ep
© 
Yes pls on the patrons omggg, everything else sounds good to me!